Posts by Juan Viejo2

123

Translating the NWT in the Shadows

by JuanMiguel in

note: the following is not meant to be construed as a recommendation but to demonstrate the sharp contrast between any authentic bible translation and the new world translation.

for those of us who participate and or read the threads on this board, i understand and appreciate that all here have different views on religion, the existence of god, and of the catholic church.

i believe each individuals convictions should be treated with the utmost respect and dignity.

Juan Viejo2

Let's face it. If the writers/translators of the NWT did what my friend stated (got a bunch of recent English and American translations and then rewrite the words of the already translated verses), they were likely to have a fairly reliable translation for 90% of the text they rewrote.

The issue is on those verses of the NWT that seem to be significantly different from the vast majority. These were the scriptures like John 1:1 where the Watchtower "translators" ignored the vast amount of evidence available and changed the wording to match Watchtower teachings.

Originally, the NWT used brackets around words that were inserted to clarify meanings or were subject to dispute but seemed to fit within the context. The latest versions of the NWT have removed those brackets - in effect hiding the facts from NWT readers that those words might not be original or were actually added by the WT later.

JuanMiguel, you've provided a well researched group of essays in this thread. I think what is most important for JWs and former JWs to understand is that the translators of the NWT did not follow all of the normal protocols used by professional Bible scholars and translators. The NWT is a translation by committee made up of non-scholars and non-experts in ancient languages - and that includes Fred Franz.

The NWT can most closely be compared to this scenario: Several of us from this forum - ATJeff, MadSweeney, Outlaw, Darth Frosty, and me (Juan Viejo) - all get together in a hotel room for six months to compare Bible translations and then come up with our own. None of us know Greek, Latin, Hebrew, Aramaic, Syriac, ancient Egyptian, Hittite, or Phoenician. So each of us grabs a recent translation, plus a Douay and a King James Bible and then we vote on the best way to write each verse.

Would that add to the inaccuracy of our version? Probably not, if the majority of the translations we were using were relatively accurate. Would the basic themes and teachings of the Bible remain consistent? Well yes, except for maybe a very few where we couldn't agree and had to compromise on some awkward wording of a verse.

If we published that version of the Bible and told our potential readers, "Hey, this is a version that a bunch of barely literate guys came up with and we think it sounds pretty good. Read it and then decide for yourself," then we'd be honest about what we were selling.

But if we published our version and then told everyone that we were educated scholars who were expert and proficient in translating ancient dead languages - and we had additional help because we were inspired and guided by God's Holy Spirit - then we would be frauds and liars and would be cheating our readers.

Let me ask just one more question: When the NWT translators were doing their work, where did they procure their old manuscripts? What ancient depositories or museums did they go to access and study those ancient manuscripts. Who among them went to the Vatican to access the oldest manuscripts of the Latin Vulgate and Septuagint manuscripts? If anyone can answer that, please do.

The fact is that the NWT translators did all their "translating" behind closed doors at Brooklyn Bethel without benefit of any of the old original manuscripts. And even if they had sent someone to the Vatican or the British Museum or any other repository of ancient manuscripts, there was not one among them that could have read or translated any of those priceless documents.

The NWT is a sham...

JV

65

New ex-JW memoir coming out...

by brizzzy in

jw
friends

i don't post a ton here because i'm kinda shy.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/0373892357?tag=thegirsguitoh-20&camp=14573&creative=327641&linkcode=as1&creativeasin=0373892357&adid=038ez4bjpam7bcsze5mq&.

that's the amazon link (which is currently the most affordable, i believe, but it's also available for preorder at b&n, borders, indiebound, and indigo-chapters if you're in canada, if you prefer one of those retailers).. .

Juan Viejo2

Vampire,

I don' have to show you no stinkin' huevos!!!

JV

65

New ex-JW memoir coming out...

by brizzzy in

jw
friends

i don't post a ton here because i'm kinda shy.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/0373892357?tag=thegirsguitoh-20&camp=14573&creative=327641&linkcode=as1&creativeasin=0373892357&adid=038ez4bjpam7bcsze5mq&.

that's the amazon link (which is currently the most affordable, i believe, but it's also available for preorder at b&n, borders, indiebound, and indigo-chapters if you're in canada, if you prefer one of those retailers).. .

Juan Viejo2

I can assure everyone on this board that this is a book you will definitely want to read. It's so much more than you think it will be. It's far more than just another ex-JW or apostate rant and rage story.

Hey - to all of you guys here on the board - although it's written by a young woman, it is a book that I loved and couldn't put down. And I can assure you that I'm a "hombre masculino!"

JV

123

Translating the NWT in the Shadows

by JuanMiguel in

note: the following is not meant to be construed as a recommendation but to demonstrate the sharp contrast between any authentic bible translation and the new world translation.

for those of us who participate and or read the threads on this board, i understand and appreciate that all here have different views on religion, the existence of god, and of the catholic church.

i believe each individuals convictions should be treated with the utmost respect and dignity.

Juan Viejo2

I have mentioned this before in other contexts, but I'll bring this up again. The New World Translation may have never been what it was claimed to be.

Around 1962-63, there was a young brother that showed up at our Kingdom Hall. He'd recently left Bethel and had served in both the British and Brooklyn Bethel homes in various capacities. He was well spoken and clearly well-educated in the British style. He didn't like to talk too much about himself or his background, or why he suddenly appeared at our Kingdom Hall in Southern California. A few of the gossips in the Hall thought he might be "homosexual" (this was before the word "gay" was is wide use) because he was clearly not athletic, he dressed too well, had nicely groomed hair, and, of course, spoke with a British accent. Pretty much sealed the deal for most of the sisters when he refused to be the subject of their match-making efforts.

He and I carpooled to our jobs about 25 miles away. He sensed that I was beginning to slide out of the Witness work because I was avoiding field service and often missed meetings. So I think, because of my age and my lack of enthusiasm for being a JW, he felt he could share some of his personal thoughts with me.

One day, on the way to work, we got in a discussion of Bible translations. He told me that he personally preferred to read the recently released Revised Standard Version, a modern take on the King James, but with modern English. He said that it was joy to read because it retained the poetic characteristics of the original King James Version. I asked him what he thought of the NWT; the Greek Scriptures had been out about 10 years and the Hebrew Scriptures had finally all been released by the time of this conversation. I had just received my special order version of the complete NWT in maroon leather and was very happy with it.

He told me that when he was in Brooklyn Bethel, one of his jobs was to act as an expert on the differences betwen British and American English. He had lived long enough in both countries that he could "interpret" British English for the writing committee and for other purposes.

"You know that the New World Translation is all a sham, don't you?" he asked as we drove along. I was dumbfounded by his question and replied that I had never heard such a thing. I asked how he came to that conclusion.

"Basically what the translation committee did, none of whom could speak, write or read Latin, Greek, or Hebrew, was to gather together all of the Bible translations already available in modern English. They also used the Emphatic Diaglott (a Greek/English version) favored by Russell and Rutherford, and then started rewriting it themselves. They didn't use any old transcripts. They basically rewrote the whole thing by committee, each one taking a book of the Bible and rewriting it in modern North American English. That's all they ever did."

This was the first time I'd heard such a thing (but not the last). I asked him how come the translation seemed so consistent in its language.

"After a book was drafted in the new English, they would all sit down and listen as it was read outloud. Then they would make suggestions on adjustments or the use of different words. They would then vote on acceptance or for more editing. If a verse didn't quite fit Watchtower teachings, they'd look for someway to change it without being too obvious. If they couldn't do it without being obvious, then they came up with some excuse that the brothers would accept without argument. Then the chapter would go to Fred Franz for final review and editing. His final version was pretty much accepted "as is" without argument. That's how it was done."

I asked how he came to know all of this. He explained that some of the translations were produced by British scholars or Bible publishers - and they typically were the best. "But they used some terms that the writing committee wasn't completely comfortable with, so they would call me and a couple of other British brothers to clarify if we could."

He told me that the translation committee was a joke in Bethel - and everyone knew it was Fred Franz's baby. That was one reason that they wanted to keep the committee anonymous - because if the word got out that none of the translators were educated in Greek, Latin, Aramaic, and Hebrew - especially the ancient versions - their poor excuse for a new English language translation would be laughed at and exposed publicly for what it was - a complete and total fraud.

"But that means that the Bethel brothers lied to us about the translators and everything," I said.

"They lie to us all the time. Someday you'll figure it all out for yourself and hopefully the facts will come out. What I'm telling you is the truth. All I ask is that you keep it to yourself - at least for now."

He left our Kingdom Hall a few months later and I completely lost track of him. But I've never forgotten that conversation. Based on what I've heard from other sources and transcripts from a court case that involved Fred Franz, I believe my carpool buddy was telling the truth.

JV

47

I THINK IT'S RIDICULOUS !!!!!!!!!!!

by wasblind in

1) i think it's ridiculous to tell anyone when and how to use something they paid for ( computers and internet service ).

2) i think it's ridiculous to tell married couples how to act in the bedroom.

3) i think it's ridiculous to tell people what kinda cars they should buy ( 4 door for fieldservice ).

Juan Viejo2

Edmond Dantes - So right on! Take it another step and wonder, if the bones of the Ancient Worthies were buried somewhere in the Middle East, say Jordan or Palestine - why would they suddenly show up in Southern California? Why not Tel Aviv or Beirut? Or Damascus or Baghdad? But San Diego?

Rutherford was such a shyster and a scammer. He used his basic knowledge of law to convince everyone that nothing in Russell's will needed to be observed, or Russell's selection of successors, or the fact that he did not want an "organization" to run the Bible Students - none of that mattered. He got his little group of special wackos to follow and support him and then he pretty much did, said, and wrote whatever he wanted and knew that know one would stand up to him. I'm sure that he engineered the whole Beth Sarim thing himself for his own benefit - and then simply came up with the Ancient Worthies story to be a cover story for his own greed.

JV

29

Why was Rutherford sent to prison?

by Alfred in

well that was 93 years ago so well probably never know all the facts.

but the wt claims that russell and others were falsely accused of sedition.

the may 9, 1918 new york times article that covered these arrests and sedition charges states that they were charged with spreading doctrines calculated to promote unrest and disloyalty among the men of the army and navy.

Juan Viejo2

Thanks, Alfred. Good - no, EXCELLENT work and research. I'll keep in touch.

JV

102

Finished Mystery (1917)... The book that Jesus approved...

by Alfred in

so a few months ago, a friend sent me an actual copy of finished mystery which was published in 1917 (not a pdf download... the actual book).

i must say, this was the most disturbing book i have ever had the displeasure of reading.

but i only read it because this was the main publication that was being distributed worldwide when jesus supposedly chose the watchtower in 1918 and i basically wanted to see for myself what jesus saw in the wt that would compel him to choose this religious corporation over all other religious denominations.. anyway, if anyone is interested in knowing the actual contents of this book, here are some bullet points i put together from some of the notes i took as i read the book:.

Juan Viejo2

Alfred - please check your PMs

102

Finished Mystery (1917)... The book that Jesus approved...

by Alfred in

so a few months ago, a friend sent me an actual copy of finished mystery which was published in 1917 (not a pdf download... the actual book).

i must say, this was the most disturbing book i have ever had the displeasure of reading.

but i only read it because this was the main publication that was being distributed worldwide when jesus supposedly chose the watchtower in 1918 and i basically wanted to see for myself what jesus saw in the wt that would compel him to choose this religious corporation over all other religious denominations.. anyway, if anyone is interested in knowing the actual contents of this book, here are some bullet points i put together from some of the notes i took as i read the book:.

Juan Viejo2

Black Sheep -

You are right that the book is still widely available if you look hard enough (Ebay is one location, and an occasional copy shows up on Amazon) - and that many copies can still be found in KH libraries throughout USA and Canada - it is also true that many of the newer KH libraries do not have anything further back than the 1950s version of "Let God Be True" and "The Truth Shall Set You Free." It is also true that many KH libraries were purged in the early to mid-80s of all of Rutherford's and Russell's old books - some going to Goodwill and some ending up in elders' garages to be eaten by mold and termites.

I'd ask all of the readers of this forum that still go to Kingdom Halls to check their local KH libraries and report back what they found there?

1. Are there any Russell books?

2. Are there any Rutherford books, especially the Rainbow series?

3. How far back do the Watchtower annual volumes go back?

4. Are there any Consolation or Golden Age volumes in the libraries?

I think it would be interesting for the forum members to find out what the contents of most KH libraries consist of.

JV

102

Finished Mystery (1917)... The book that Jesus approved...

by Alfred in

so a few months ago, a friend sent me an actual copy of finished mystery which was published in 1917 (not a pdf download... the actual book).

i must say, this was the most disturbing book i have ever had the displeasure of reading.

but i only read it because this was the main publication that was being distributed worldwide when jesus supposedly chose the watchtower in 1918 and i basically wanted to see for myself what jesus saw in the wt that would compel him to choose this religious corporation over all other religious denominations.. anyway, if anyone is interested in knowing the actual contents of this book, here are some bullet points i put together from some of the notes i took as i read the book:.

Juan Viejo2

Alfred - you have a PM - please check.

Fat Freek - Thanks!!!

75

Is "Kingdumb Hall" really an offensive term?

by cyberjesus in

if a friend of mine starts to say things out of emotion and i call him "schizophrenic" then that might be an insult.

however if he is having auditory hallucinations, paranoid or bizarre delusions, or disorganized speech and thinking then that word becomes a description of his situation.. now i ask you.

does the attendance to the kh promote intelligence?

Juan Viejo2

I think there is a time and a place for everything - even a little ridiculous name calling on occasion - depending upon who might become offended. I'm not likely to say, "How's the weather up there, fat boy?" to Shaquille O'Neal. Nope, not appropriate and possibly very dangerous. My medical insurance would probably not cover my expenses for those injuries.

As an editor of a website that criticizes the Watchtower Society, but not individual JWs (unless they happen to be part of that seven man rotation in Patterson or a historical member of the Society), I want to draw in and welcome as many current, recently past, and hopefully wavering JWs that I can. Calling them names, making fun of their magazines and buildings - unless done in something that is clearly supposed to be parody or satire - will chase them away and brand me and my website as "anti-Christian" or "anti-Jehovah," which is not the case.

So here, yes, we should all be used to the funny names and the often biting, harsh, and well-written humor we find here. JWs who come here to find support for anything the Watchtower teaches or supports have come to the wrong place. If they're going to be offended by a few funny names for their ridiculous cult, they deserve to go away and hide from reality and live their miserable lives unloved and unwanted - and without a smile on their face.

JV